Mage spec thoughts (updated 2/27/2009)

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Okay, this thread is to discuss current mage specs and impressions.

Fire:18/51/0(+2)
Rotation: Living Bomb->scorch x2->Fireball(spam)-> Pyroblast on Hot Streak Proc*-> refresh Living Bomb when expired-> refresh scorch when low
*There is contention on whether to refresh scorch before a Hot-streaked Pyro, or just cast Pyro after fireball and hope for the best(see Ignite Munching, below). It is thought that getting your scorch refresh out of the way when there's a possibility of ignite munching is bettter. I just go for it after fireball, and take the loss if both crit.

Frostfire: 0/53/18
Rotation: Living Bomb->scorch x2->Frostfire bolt(spam)-> Pyroblast on Hot Streak Proc*-> refresh Living Bomb when expired-> refresh scorch when low->Icy veins on CD whle ensuring it's up for Bloodlust
*There is contention on whether to refresh scorch before a Hot-streaked Pyro, or just cast Pyro after fireball and hope for the best(see Ignite Munching, below). It is thought that getting your scorch refresh out of the way when there's a possibility of ignite munching is bettter. I just go for it after fireball, and take the loss if both crit.

Frost: 18/0/53
Rotation: Water elemental -> Blizzard to 5 winters chill stacks->Frostbolt(spam)->fireball on Brainfreeze proc(if FoF is not up)->Ice lance after 2nd spell cast after Fingers of Frost Proc*
*You can cast an instant spell right after your 2nd spell under FoF to get a 3rd spell with the FoF buff off.

I've seen some discussion about brain freeze just not scaling after a certain point of gear, such that it's better to take it out of your talent buiild altogether. Once you get a bit of gear, frost scales to be more damage per cast time than an instant cast fireball using up a GCD. Fireball becomes more of a DPM consideration since it's a free cost spell with brain freeze.

Arcane: 57/3/11(*nerfed 3.0.9)
Rotation: I'm not sure on this one and amunder the impression that it varies with mana needs I think it's something like: [Arcane Blast x N*->arcane barrage](repeat until missile barrage procs)-[Arcane Blast to 3 stacks->Missile Barrage->arcane barrage]
*N is a constant number between 1 and 3; 1 is less dps and more mana efficient
NOTE: I'VE SEEN RECENT DISCUSSION THAT ABarr GOT NERFED SO MUCH THAT IT"S NOT USEFUL IN AN ARCANE ROTATION ANYMORE

Ignite Munching - When spells land and crit simultaniously one may not get the benefit of the extra 40% DoT, ignite. This is an OLD bug that used to be noticed with fireball->fireblast combos; both would crit, but only the greater one would be calculated in the ignite damage.

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Q&A
Which Spec does the most dps?
Currently the order for personal dps is: Arcane>~Fire>~Frostfire>Frost. Assuming equivalent gear and TotW remains up for fire, frost, and arcane builds.

With patch 3.0.9 Arcane got knocked down a notch... now the top 3 specs are neck and neck. Frost still sucks.

However, non-arcane builds also offer a raid-wide buff, and non-frostfire builds offer a single-player buff that increases their crit chance by 3%.

Which spec has the most utility?
Frost, but not by much. The 10% crit debuff of Winter's chill is identical to improved scorch(frost and frostfire). Frost, however, has a water elemental which returns mana to your entire raid and stacks with replinishment(THIS IS SET TO CHANGE PATCH 3.1). Fire, frost, and arcane offer a 3% crit buff(Focus Magic) to one other player.

What is a good beginner level 80 spec?
My personal opinion is frost for instances and heroics, then frostfire bolt once you have a bit of gear.

Frost provides decent group buffs. It's damage is not as dependant on crit that you're missing at lower levels of gear. Cold snap for 2 icy veins and 2 water elementals on instance boss fights is very nice for damage and mana return to your healer(good if the healer is a starter 80 also). I would recommend picking up ice barrier with a starter frost build, until your survivability increases with gear.

Once you've gotten gear with better stats(more hit, crit, etc) I'd say to go frostfire. It's still quite mana efficient and very good damage. It also will scale well with even more gear.

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Quick Hit Cap Guide

Assumes 3/3 elemental precision in specs w/ more than 8 points in frost. Assumes arcane focus for arcane spec. For boss level mobs, only.

210--Arcane(57/3/11) w/ misery/impFF
289--Frostfire(0/53/18 ) w/ misery/impFF;
------Frost(18/0/53) w/ misery/impFF;
------Arcane(57/3/11)
368--Fireball(18/53/0) w/ misery/impFF;
------Frostfire(0/53/18 );
------Frost(18/0/53)
446--Fireball(18/53/0)
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Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

the torment the weak change buffed both fireball and arcane. I pulled top dps on patchwerk this week with 4999.3(at least on my chart) as fire. All the numbers i've seen have fire slightly above frostfire if you have full TotW and Focus Magic uptime.

Also, every spec but frostfire can buff another person with 3% crit

I think I'm going back to ffb, soon. it's much more mana efficient and comparable dps. Plus I sometimes run heroics witha druid that doesn't have infected wounds so no TotW.

I think arcane is too hard to maintain to offer superior dps consistently. it's such a mana dump and most mages still don't have the rotation down right. On paper, it wins... in practice it's not as reliable, especially since they hotfixed the clipping that allowed 2 spells to get the AB debuff in initial arcane specs.
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Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

The buff to fireball spec from torment is news to me. My time on my account has been out for a while now so i havent been able to test and compare fire to ffb. I really want to try out an arcane spec though. The rotation does not seem that hard if you pay close attention. The missle proc is similar to hot streak imo. Just gotta watch for the AB debuff as well, which hopefully healer dont dispell.

Oh, i forgot to add. Lately i have tried specing Focus Magic as FFB rather than getting IV and i have found it to be much more effective from the 3% crit along with mana effective with Clearcasting. Its a messes up spec since you MUST get Precision in frost for the hit. Cant remember exact numbers but its like 11/53/8 or something.
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Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Well, the change to torment let's it be triggered by the attack speed slowing ability that every tanks uses, so fire's main nuke got a 12% damage increase.

My initial thoughts about fire were that the base hits were larger and the crits are smaller because you don't have the bonus from Ice shards that frostfire bolt gets. Though if you're trying a focus magic FFB spec you wouldn't have that anyways. Without piercing ice and ice shards I'd imagine that FFB loses a bit of it punch. Do you really think it's better than traditional FFB spec?

I definitely saw a dps increase, but I also got a new computer and some upgrades around the time I switched to fire. I think my system performance was a good factor in the dps increase. I plan on returning to FFB soon to get an idea of how its dps is with my current gear and computer system. I just have to find a way to lose some hit; I've got hit dripping out my ears right now, especiallly since we always have a shadow priest.

I'll spend some time with the training dummy as both fire and FFB whenever I switch. I might have to borrow a Torment slave for testing, I might make my husband's DK come slow the target down for me a bit while I pew pew.

Anyways, about theoretical numbers, I found this dps output simulation theorycrafting thingy: http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/SampleOutput. By all the numbers, those should be the theoretical output of the different mage specs, but I think I read somewhere that that simulation is generous to arcane with replinishment.
However, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
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Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

I find the unique 11/51/8 FFB to actually do pretty solid dps, although it is not as much as a traditional FFB spec, which includes IV and all those beneficial frost talents. With focus magic keep in mind it is a 6% crit buff, which is huge. (3% for your target and 3% for yourself)

It may not be as good for the one person, but say if i was to be the FM mage then our traditional FFB mage would get a 3% buff from me, which is rather helpful. Also if we could find a mage who would be willing to go Water ele spec, that would be amazing for the ele party regen. Also, the winter chill's buff would be great too since the FFB/fire mages wouldnt have to stop and cast scorch. Which would boost their dps by a fair share imo.
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Whats wrong with getting drunk at 11am? Thats just making a stereotypical time to get drunk. And I am not one for stereotypes, thanks.

Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

Scratch that point about the water ele (im too lazy to edit it lol)

One of the mage changes in 3.1.0

"Improved Water Elemental – this talent has been removed and replaced with a new talent that grants Replenishment (similar to Shadow priests)."

This new buff is going to be UNREAL for pve. gonna give mages a more superious role in coming to raids. We are the new SP imo

rest are:

"We are also working on a way to give frost mages Ice Lance “Shatter combos” in PvE.
We are also working on more survivability for Fire spec in PvP.
We are also working on making Spirit a more useful and interesting stat for all mages."
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Whats wrong with getting drunk at 11am? Thats just making a stereotypical time to get drunk. And I am not one for stereotypes, thanks.

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Water elemental pre-3.1 affects the entire raid, in which case I prefer it to (another) replinishment. It stacks with replinishment, whereas separate replinishment effects don't stack with each other.
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Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Updated the main post a bit. Arcane got nerfed in patch 3.0.9.

FFB, FB, and arcane are all very comparable dps specs now.
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Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

Yup, arcane got the old kick in the crotch. I was excited to try it out when i returned but now what is the point. i will just stick with my not so very exciting FFB spec.
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Whats wrong with getting drunk at 11am? Thats just making a stereotypical time to get drunk. And I am not one for stereotypes, thanks.

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Alright, so I pulled KT the other night when I wasn't even targetting him. I was CCing a MC. I was wonderring where that threat came from, so I browsed the combat log to see if there was something I missed. See below:

Skadi · Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 29

You just blew my mind
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Whats wrong with getting drunk at 11am? Thats just making a stereotypical time to get drunk. And I am not one for stereotypes, thanks.

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Though it was not mentioned explicitly, I foresee a nerf to winter's chill and scorch. It's been rumored since a Dev comment to locks that ISB will now have a 5% spell crit debuff "similar to a mage's scorch".

The latest foreshadow of this incoming nerf comes in the glyph of mirror image:

Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

The changes to imp scorch and winters chill just made it to the patch notes, though it's been specualted for more than a month. And the bonus to the talent as retribution for the nerf... 3% more crit strike on your schools nuke. I'm giong to marinate on this a bit. I saw it coming, and it's not a huge mage nerf, but a bigger raid nerf(or raid utility nerf).

Mages

Arcane Blast stacking effect is no longer considered a Magic effect and will not be dispelled.
Mage Armor: Now grants 50% of mana regeneration while casting.
Mirror Image: The images no longer cast Polymorph.
Talents
- Arcane
  - Arcane Meditation: Now grants 17/33/50% of mana regeneration while casting.
- Fire
  - Ignite: The damage done by this talent no longer receives modifications from effects that increase or decrease damage done by a percentage.
  - Improved Scorch: Increased critical strike chance is now 1%, down from 2% per application of the Improved Scorch effect. In addition, the critical strike chance of Scorch, Fireball, and Frostfire Bolt is increased by 1/2/3%.
  - Pyromaniac: Now grants 17/33/50% of mana regeneration while casting.
- Frost
  - Improved Water Elemental: Renamed Enduring Winter.Instead of the Water Elemental increasing mana regeneration for the mage’s party, casting Frostbolt now has a 33/66/100% chance to provide the Replenishment buff to up to 10 people in the mage’s party or raid.
  - Winter’s Chill: Increased critical strike chance is now 1%, down from 2% per application of Winter’s Chill. In addition, the critical strike chance of Frostbolt is increased by 1/2/3%.

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Jess · Officer Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 187

Just a comment on the upcoming changes to Molten Armor.

Supposedly, instead of giving a base percentage of crit, which it's done since it's inception, it will now convert spirit to crit rating. This is a nerf for those with low spirit, and a buff for those with high spirit. Either way, it changes gearing philosophy and mages no longer pass on those high spirit items for priests and locks. Sorry, yall. Razz

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